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Frog in the throat

Posted by Smokey Stover on September 10, 2009 at 23:58

In Reply to: Frog in the throat posted by Victoria S Dennis on September 10, 2009 at 07:52:

: : : : : Frog in the throat

: : : : : I have heard that this is an old English saying. Parisians still use their throat to make the R sound. And as you may know, the French are often given the slang name of Frogs.

: : : : : England had several French monarchs and was occupied by the French. I have always heard that when an Englishman had a sore throat, they would say they had a 'frog' or a Frenchman, in their throat.

: : :
: : : : Leaving aside any other consideration, isn't the sound of the 'trilled' or 'rolled' R of the French (and other languages) made with the tongue? I speak Irish (which also has a voiced 'R') and I don't make the sound with my throat.

: : : : DFG

: : : The frog in the throat is covered elsewhere on this site. See:

: : : www.phrases.org.uk meanings 143825.html

: : : I don't think "trilled r" and "rolled r" mean the same thing to everyone, especially if they are equated with the uvular r used in French. The French r is often called a "guttural r," meaning an r made in the throat. The American r, sometimes called an alveolar r, is made with the tongue and palate. The French r uses the tongue and palate also, but with a different part of the tongue (the dorsum) approaching the back part (velar) of the palate, that is the soft palate. Done in a certain way, this causes the uvula to oscillate as in a French r. Done in a different way it produces the voiceless velar fricative sometimes spelled kh, or in German, ch.

: : : I believe that a "rolled r" is what Americans call the kind of r they are said to use in Scotland. You've doubtless heard the dreadful joke about the American who goes into a Scottish bar, and after placing his order tells the barmaid, "I love the way you roll your r's." She replies, "Thank you, sir, I think it's these high heels I'm wearin'."
: : : SS

: : To the OP: England was never "occupied by the French" - it was conquered by Normans, and had Norman kings, which isn't the same thing at all. Neither then or later did the Saxons call those Normans "frogs"; the slang term "frog" for "Frenchman" is no earlier than the late 18th century. (And, as DFG rightly says, it is impossible to make *any* R sound in the throat, even if you come from Paris.) There are several colourful stories to explain "frog in the throat", but really it needs no explanation - if you have a lump in your throat, and you can only produce a croak, it's quite natural to describe this as "having a frog in it". (VSD)

: To Smokey: suppose the American were to blush and say "No, no, I only meant that you speak such a rhotic dialect"......?

And she says to me, "I'm sure I don't know why you think I talk errrōtic. But you should hear my sister!"
SS

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