Posted by Lotg on October 15, 2004
In Reply to: Lothian and Borders posted by Lewis on October 14, 2004
: : : : : : : : : : : : : How to explain it?
: : : : : : : : : : : : Travel gives you experiences and perspectives that you won't find at home.
: : : : : : : : : : : It gives one the opportunity, but not everyone takes advantage of it. Some well-travelled people are still very provincial.
: : : : : : : : : : when I was in Italy some years ago - we had an English couple sit next to us in a restaurant - the menu was the usual Italian trattoria/pizzeria fare - they asked for an omelette. now, there is nothing wrong with omelette per se, but to go so far and want home-cooking of such simple nature seems to defeat part of the purpose - we travel for pleasure in all the senses : the sounds of pealing bells and foreign language, the smell of drains(!), plants and cooking, the taste of the food, the sight of the landscape/townscapes/art, the touch of cool marble.
: : : : : : : : : : ...at least that is how I consider it.
: : : : : : : : : : seeing that what one experiences at home is not the only way of life is all part of it. OK, so a friend who works for an aid agency and had a visit to Rwanda may be thankful of the life he leads back here, but having been there, he knows something of how life can be different.
: : : : : : : : : : seeing Madrid at 2 a.m. as crowded as London on Saturday afternoon was quite amazing for me - or wandering around safely at 1 a.m. with no bars closing unless the owners felt like it - or shops being generally open until late evening - these are all differences that make one think about how lives can be different, even on the same continent.
: : : : : : : : : : with all due respect to our American friends, the global dominantion by multinationals and cultural imperialism does threaten these differences, but for now, we can still observe and celebrate them.
: : : : : : : : : I think it's the market that tends to standardise things these days. There's so much lip service paid to DIFFERENCE these days but it's difference for it's own sake. The joy of difference, for me at least, is that it's the journey that leads to the universal. It's like learning to love haggis... you don't necessarily *like* per se (though I do in small quanities)but you love that you're in on the joke. Does that make sense?
: : : : : : : : : Word Camel
: : : : : : : : : Who is inexplicably craving haggis now
: : : : : : : : Mmm - I think we agree - the multinationals operate in a market, but some have monopoly or oligopoly power - certainly disproportionate power compared to local independent competitors.
: : : : : : : : it is one thing for the public to prefer "Starbucks" coffee, but another if the company uses their economic power to drive smaller businesses into insolvency. as Joni Mitchell said "you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone" - people make short-term economic decisions so dominent forces in a market can cut prices below cost to destroy competition and once that competition no longer exists, they can raise prices/lower quality as they choose - because they have eliminated choice.
: : : : : : : : personally, without faulting their quality, I find Starbucks overpriced and over-saturating the market, so I prefer to drink coffee elsewhere. in lots of places SBs may be better than what existed before, in some places it most definitely is not. The Italians were concerned at SBs inroads into the conventional market - they felt it was damaging their culture.
: : : : : : : : that is of no concern to organisations like SBs - like MucDonalds they want global market share irrespective of culture or choice/quality issues. Me? I boycott Mucky Ds too. My choice.
: : : : : : : : Pure prejudice - I do not like the company, do not like the product enough to overlook disliking the company and would prefer to spend money elsewhere - preferably with a more locally-owned supplier.
: : : : : : : : there is the question of marketing - with enough money backing the PR, a brand can establish itself even if the product is awful. popularity is not a mark of quality.
: : : : : : : : people have similar needs and aspirations throughout the world, but they do not need to be met in the same way. diversity of culture can be lost the same way that bio-diversity can be lost and we become weaker as a species as a result.
: : : : : : : I couldn't agree more. Being in marketing, I well know how product quality has far less to do with success than product image. Being in IT, I'm also regularly prone to rail impotently against market dominance by global corporations. Finally, being a rebel without a clue, I am proud to confirm that I have been banned in perpetuo from Starbuck's flagship store in Seattle.
: : : : : : Fortunatley for TF and Lewis (and anyone else who want to check it out) The best coffee in the London and probably the UK is available for Bar Italia, Frith Street, Soho. It's always strong but not bitter, served by handsome young Italian men (which may not be as much of a draw for some) and the Italian football is on the television 24/7. Often imitated, never chained.
: : : : : Word Camel, you've sold me on the waiters, but the Italian football I'm afraid would definitely get on my nerves. Having just read through this thread certain things leapt out at me.
: : : : : Omelettes in Italy
: : : : : Oligopoly - just cos it's a great word
: : : : : Haggis, and
: : : : : the Fallen who's in both Marketing and IT - and unusual combo.
: : : : : OK, firstly omelettes in Italy. I tend to think the same thing as you when I see people ordering chips in Istanbul or fried eggs in Paris. But - maybe we should consider how long said tourists had been in the country. Personally I couldn't get enough of Italian, French, Turkish and Austrian food, so I'm not a good example, but I have been in other countries where I've spent so long eating their food that eventually I've craved the fare to which I'm accustomed. Maybe these people had too - who knows. Furthermore, I'll betcha the Italians can do pretty special omelettes anyway. I don't think there's anything they can't cook magnificently - unless they're running a Starbucks franchise.
: : : : : Although I do recall to my horror, that in Milan there's an intersection right in the centre that has two McDonalds - one on each opposing corner as I recall, and the other corners had equally appalling fast food places. In fact, Milan sports a frightening number of fast, junk food places. It's almost as though they take their glorious food for granted.
: : : : : Oligopoly - yes that's a crime. Starbucks - pfffffffff!!!!!!!! Shoot me if I ever lower myself to do coffee there. And DO coffee is about all you can do there. As someone who has formerly owned a gourmet retail outlet and restaurant - I feel like I've been poisoned when I patronise places like that.
: : : : : And haggis. Well I've never tried it. There seems to be only two kinds of people. People who love haggis and people who hate it. One day I'll find out why. The concept's a bit frightening, but I'm game.
: : : : : And finally 'the Fallen' how do you do IT and Marketing at the same time?
: : : : Haggis - I once had a great main course - a borders variation on Fillet Steak Rossini: one of the best of which I had in Paris, rather than Italy - mind you, arguably the very best was Harry's Bar Venice. I don't think they called it Rossini, but it was definitely a variation. I hate liver, yet they topped the dish with caramelised liver and it was superb!
: : : : Anyhow, back to Northumberland - the Sun Hotel, Warkworth, September 2003, I think - fillet steak topped with haggis soused with whisky. creative or what?
: : : : haggis, white & black pudding are all borders fare. good farming country and good produce which makes all the difference to the cuisine.
: : : : Had some outdoor-reared pork from up there Sunday lunchtime.
: : : : Mmm - Lewis.
: : : Where do you mean when you're saying 'borders' Lewis?
: : : And thanks Fallen for your explanation. No - I wasn't confusing marketing with advertising, I've had enough experience in both to be dangerous and to know the difference. Where I went wrong was a presumption (with no logical foundation I must say) that your core skill was IT, rather than marketing. I have no idea why I painted that mental picture - and it was clearly wrong - but sometimes we do that don't we - get a picture in our minds and it can lead us down different paths to those we ought to be on. But you've got me on the right one now.
: : I've heard the term Lothian and Borders in reference to what I assume is a Police branch/department. And when I googled that, the term appears to be used for other groups too. So OK, I've shown gross geographical ignorance and it now appears that Lothian is somewhere near Edinburgh and presumably this term is in reference to the area between Edinburgh and the Scottish border. Doh!!!!!!!!!!
: I'm talking of the England/Scotland border region.
: to me, "the Borders" is broadly the region between Newcastle and Edinburgh, albeit that more generally speaking it relates the the area south of Edinburgh around Berwick to the East across past Coldstream to the West and probably south to Wooller/Alnwick.
: As a district it is more limited still, being that area of Scotland south of Edinburgh to the English border. I think the actual border runs from one end approximately at Gretna in the west to Berwick in the East and the district is above that on the Eastern side.
: Personally, I use 'borders' to encompass the region north of Hadrian's Wall until a bit south of Edinburgh.
: The area had an odd legal status and was plagued by 'border reavers' - a kind of semi-legal banditry. In the village at Warkworth - where the Percy family had a castle - there was one incident in which the Scottish burned the population to death when they sought sanctuary in the church - about 400 people died. that was pretty common behaviour in the days of the border reavers, just happened that that lot were Jocks - another time, another place, they would have been sassenachs. Not a pleasant environment.
: Sheep were particularly vulnerable!