Posted by TheFallen on November 26, 2002
In Reply to: . . . again posted by R. Berg on November 25, 2002
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : I've heard this term more than once now, and understand it to be US-based, meaning a goal or an incentive. Am I right, how is it used, and how did it originate?
: : : : : : : : : : : : : It is what children obtained by reaching out from a merry-go-round (round about?)to snatch a ring from a device that was next to the merry-go-round. You had to hold on with one hand, reach out and grab the ring with perfect timing to get your prize.
: : : : : : : : : : : : Bruce,
: : : : : : : : : : : : You've done it again! - what a splendid picture and fine explanation. However, unknown in the UK, I think.
: : : : : : : : : : : I thank you for your kind words!
: : : : : : : : : : We should add that the rings came down a gravity-fed chute, and all of them were iron, except one - the brass ring, which gave you a free second ride as your prize. All the rings were collected by the ride operator and reloaded (in random order) for another chance at the brass ring. So the prize was not merely for being dextrous or long-armed (any child older than, say, 7, could pull a ring) but there was a considerable element of longshot chance involved. The metaphorical use of the phrase "going for the brass ring" has a little of that longshot buried in it.
: : : : : : : : : I don't know if any of these devices are still in operation today. They seem like an artifact from a more innocent time*, and the metaphor may have outlived the reference, as metaphors will do.
: : : : : : : : : *I remember one, but I'm almost ancient. Today's parents would probably sue the ride operator if little Billy didn't win. I exaggerate only slightly: a teacher in our local high school reports that some parents (more than one!) bring a lawyer to parent-teacher conferences. One must provide legal representation, I presume, to negotiate little Billy's grades so he can enter Harvard (perhaps by court order....)
: : : : : : : : Writers on the history of carousels say that the Victorian carousel and the associated brass ring developed from a medieval device for training knights. The knights rode horses in a circle while trying to spear a ring with their lances.
: : : : : : : \
: : : : : : : On November 13, National Public Radio ran a story about Maryland's State Sport ... jousting. Their version of jousting is riding a horse at full gallop, and trying to spear a ring with your lance. Transcript available at www.npr.org
: : : : : : Jousting and the consequences of missing the ring are shown very nicely in the well-researched spoof film/movie 'A Knight's Tale.' Musical accompaniment by Queen.
: : : : : : Ok, I'll hush. Bet you'll enjoy the film, though.
: : : : : Oh now I can buy into that ring thing re jousting, and I'm pretty sure that even into the C18th, cavalry used to train in much the same way. If the iron/brass ring dispenser was a Victorian invention, I wonder why the idiom never appeared over here in the UK?
: : : : : Oh and now I'm going slowly insane trying to remember the word for that revolving target that jousting knights used to train with. You know the thing - you hit the shield but had to be at full tilt *and* hit it directly full-on, or the large arm on the other side would revolve round and smack you in the back, unhorsing you. What's the damn thing called? Quatrain or something (except that's a form of poetry)?
: : : Quintain, as explained more fully below by someone who spells her name right. Earlier I posted a link with no text. Links aren't preserved when a follow-up comes along. So here's the link again (http://www.rchme.gov.uk/thesaurus/mon_types/Q/69949.htm):
: : The link in the first posting is identical to this one, and both do indeed contain text.
: No, no, I meant I had posted just a link without writing a message ("text"), so that, in all subsequent entries in that thread, it looked as if I had posted nothing at all. Here's that same link again, the one that's identical to each of the links I've posted so far. This time I'm writing a message too, as I did the second time I posted the link but not the first time. By the way, your follow-up obliterated the second posting of the Quintain link. So here it is once more. Anyone who reads this and doesn't see a link is invited to return to one of the R. Berg posts in this thread. By now, I trust, Fallen has seen, one way or another, that the elusive word is "quintain."
Thank you indeed. Isn't it strange the way the human mind works and makes links? I just knew the word was similar to quatrain - quatr-ain 4, quint-ain 5, I suppose, though I expect the origins of quintain have nothing to do with the number five at all.