Frog in the throat

Posted by James Briggs on September 16, 2009 at 17:22

In Reply to: Frog in the throat posted by Smokey Stover on September 13, 2009 at 20:45:

: : : : : : : Frog in the throat

: : : : : : : I have heard that this is an old English saying. Parisians still use their throat to make the R sound. And as you may know, the French are often given the slang name of Frogs.

: : : : : : : England had several French monarchs and was occupied by the French. I have always heard that when an Englishman had a sore throat, they would say they had a 'frog' or a Frenchman, in their throat.

: : : : :
: : : : : : Leaving aside any other consideration, isn't the sound of the 'trilled' or 'rolled' R of the French (and other languages) made with the tongue? I speak Irish (which also has a voiced 'R') and I don't make the sound with my throat.

: : : : : : DFG

: : : : : The frog in the throat is covered elsewhere on this site. See:

: : : : : www.phrases.org.uk meanings 143825.html

: : : : : I don't think "trilled r" and "rolled r" mean the same thing to everyone, especially if they are equated with the uvular r used in French. The French r is often called a "guttural r," meaning an r made in the throat. The American r, sometimes called an alveolar r, is made with the tongue and palate. The French r uses the tongue and palate also, but with a different part of the tongue (the dorsum) approaching the back part (velar) of the palate, that is the soft palate. Done in a certain way, this causes the uvula to oscillate as in a French r. Done in a different way it produces the voiceless velar fricative sometimes spelled kh, or in German, ch.

: : : : : I believe that a "rolled r" is what Americans call the kind of r they are said to use in Scotland. You've doubtless heard the dreadful joke about the American who goes into a Scottish bar, and after placing his order tells the barmaid, "I love the way you roll your r's." She replies, "Thank you, sir, I think it's these high heels I'm wearin'."
: : : : : SS

: : : : To the OP: England was never "occupied by the French" - it was conquered by Normans, and had Norman kings, which isn't the same thing at all. Neither then or later did the Saxons call those Normans "frogs"; the slang term "frog" for "Frenchman" is no earlier than the late 18th century. (And, as DFG rightly says, it is impossible to make *any* R sound in the throat, even if you come from Paris.) There are several colourful stories to explain "frog in the throat", but really it needs no explanation - if you have a lump in your throat, and you can only produce a croak, it's quite natural to describe this as "having a frog in it". (VSD)

: : : To Smokey: suppose the American were to blush and say "No, no, I only meant that you speak such a rhotic dialect"......?

: : And she says to me, "I'm sure I don't know why you think I talk errrōtic. But you should hear my sister!"
: : SS

: As regards "frog in the throat": I feel like an idiot for suggesting that the frog might be either spit or mucus. It can't be spit. Moreover, although every source I looked at said the locus for the frog was "the back of the throat," I find that far from sufficient. If the frog keeps us from talking clearly, then the mucus must lie in, on or near the larynx. The act of clearing the throat seems to me to involve ejecting the mucus upwards from the larynx, to where it can be swallowed.

: If Dr. Briggs is looking, I hope he will pronounce his opinion, which I would value greatly.
: SS

"I feel like an idiot for suggesting that the frog might be either spit or mucus. It can't be spit. Moreover, although every source I looked at said the locus for the frog was "the back of the throat," I find that far from sufficient. If the frog keeps us from talking clearly, then the mucus must lie in, on or near the larynx. The act of clearing the throat seems to me to involve ejecting the mucus upwards from the larynx, to where it can be swallowed.&quo t;

Sounds eminently sensible to me - in fact, that's what I'd always assumed and, on those occasions that I've had a 'frog', that's exactly what I've done. I don't think SS is 'a bit of an idiot'.
BTW, I visit the site every day, but don't post much these days. However, I did miss SS's post until today. Sorry.