phrases, sayings, idioms and expressions at

Phrases, Sayings and Idioms Home > Discussion Forum

Re: Your logic vs. My beliefs

Posted by Kit on August 08, 2003

In Reply to: Your logic vs. My beliefs posted by Bob on August 07, 2003

: : : : : Both your historical and scientific arguments against this "saying" are impressive. However, I would like to make the following points:

: : : : : 1. Like any saying of this sort, it was meant to exaggerate the condition - in this case, the temperature (e.g. It's hotter than Hell) - and really doesn't need a scientific argument to either prove or disprove it.

: : : : : 2. Regarding the term brass monkey - the boys (and they were boys) who carried powder and cannon balls on sailing ships were called powder monkeys. So it would follow that the device that held the cannon balls (and powder) might well be called a "monkey" - and if made of brass, a "brass monkey".

: : : : : You have to realise that these (and many other) nautical sayings were originated by semi-literate, but highly imaginative, sailors who didn't know or care about the niceties of science. So even if the devices which held the cannon balls were made of wood, it is not too far fetched to think that someone thought up the saying "It's cold enough to freeze the balls of a brass monkey" while pondering his ill-luck at being in freezing seas in the North Atlantic - or while spinning a yarn to his shipmates.

: : : : : As someone who has been at sea with the more literate - but equally imaginative - modern sailor, I can't help but think this phrase has a valid nautical origin. And to pooh-pooh it as a "nautical version of an urban myth" seems a bit patronising!

: : : : Look who's talking about seeming patronizing!
: : : I'm ready for the spirited defense of the tooth fairy.

: : Balls to brass monkeys!

: : The nautical brass monkey theory is not a vague assertion - there are people coming on here and stating that it has a very specific origin - that there was a brass frame that cannon-balls were racked in and that due to the unequal contraction of metals, the balls popped out in the cold.

: : I have been round a number of old ships and military museums. I have also read fairly widely about the history of warfare. I agree that the lads that dodged around the ship bringing powder from the magazine to the gundecks for the cannons were called "powder monkeys" - but the rest of it is pure tosh. Cannon-balls are only heaped up for ceremonial display and never on a gun-deck where they would fall off through the rolling motion of the ship, be blown off by opposing gunfire or be shaken off by recoil. Saying that it should be accepted as "it's not that unlikely" is denying both history and logic.

: There you go again. What chance does your rationality and research stand against the colorful tale I once heard and bought into? Do you expect me to abandon my cherished beliefs, and appear gullible, just because you point out how ludicrous and delusional they are? Harrumph.

You guys make me laugh, in a sad sort of way!

See also - the meaning and origin of 'Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey'.