Re: Black & white
Posted by Amos on January 19, 2000
In Reply to: Re: Black & white posted by
Frankie on January 19, 2000
: : : : : : : : : : It's clear that "the pot calling the kettle
black" refers to criticism that could equally apply to the critic.
But why is "black" a criticism in this phrase? I am specifically
wondering if this is one of those nasty ethnic slurs that is left
over from a time when such things were more commonly spoken, or
if some other interpretation might apply. Any ideas or information?
Please send an e-mail. Thanks. : : : : : : : : : POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK - The "Morris Dictionary
of Word and Phrase Origins" by William and Mary Morris has more
detail about this phrase than other reference books. (Note: iron
pots and kettles are already black, even when new.) Judge for yourself
whether the phrase has racial connotations. I guess that issue hinges
on whether the color black being associated with "evil" has a connection
to racial prejudice towards dark-skinned people: : : : : : : : : : "There are two slightly varying interpretations
of this phrase, which is used figuratively to apply to persons.
One theory is that such action is ridiculous because they are both
black, presumably from standing for years on a wood-burning stove
or in a fireplace. So the pot as well as the kettle is black (evil)
and neither one is better than the other. This supports the explanation
of the phrase as given in 'Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable':
'Said of one accusing another of faults similar to those committed
by himself.' : : : : : : : : : The other theory is that the pot was black but
the kettle polished copper and the pot, seeing its own blackness
reflected in the shiny surface of the kettle, maintained that the
kettle, not it, was actually black. In any event, it seems that
the best, if slangy, retort by the kettle may have been: 'Look who's
talking!' : : : : : : : : : Usually the source of the phrase is given as
Cervantes' 'Don Quixote' and simply as 'The pot calls the kettle
black,' but another version of Don Quixote comes out as: 'Said the
pot to the kettle, get away black-face!' Henry Fielding, eighteenth
century writer, reverses the roles in 'Covent Garden Tragedy': 'Dares
thus the kettle to rebuke our sin!/Dares thus the kettle say the
pot is black!' Even Shakespeare used the idea in 'Troilus and Cressida':
'The raven chides blackness.'" : : : : : : : : To use a technical term, I fear you're guilty of
'Churning'.>>> : : : : : : : An elaboration of that term would be appreciated. : : : : : : : And another point, can you really be posting the
transcript of a conversation between a copper kettle and a pot and
expecting to be considered serious.>>> : : : : : : : Could Cervantes? : : : : : : : Methinks you're still influenced by overindulgence
in the the kind of festive cheer that comes from bottles marked
"100% Proof" - and that's the kindest explanation I've got.>>> : : : : : : : Verily, methinks the wench indeed hath quaffed of
our finest ale; how apple-cheeked and lusty she doth appear! : : : : : : I'm as black as you can get (even my brown African
brothers give me the cold shoulder) so before we dredge up the words
of all manner of dead white folk to justify everything please understand
that it hurts at times to be visible only as a stereotype. It also
doesn't help your self confidence to be the butt of any and all
words and expressions featuring the word black, e.g. black balled,
blackmail (male), blackguard, blackout, blackberry, blackbird (are
you married to.), blacksmith and even 'the pot calling the kettle
black' etc. : : : : : : I guess I probably over-reacted so have a great New
Year and all that stuff. : : : : : I should like to believe that the rustle I think I hear
in the echoing silence is the sound of dried leaves on the dead
vine of prejudice but I have fears that it's merely Winter waiting
for a Spring of luxuriant growth. : : : : Ms. Finley posted the original inquiry about whether the
expression "pot calling the kettle black" was a racist expression.
I initially gave my opinion that, no it isn't. Then I did some research,
reconsidered and posted information from a reference book for the
purposes of further discussion. I agree that most of the time the
color "white" represents good and "black" represents evil. But it
seems to me that the core of the discussion should be whether "black"
being equated with "evil" comes from negative feelings about dark-skinned
people or does it stem from "black" being associated with night,
for example. Some of these expressions are ancient and might predate
the black/white racial issue. This should be an interesting discussion.
But please contain your anger and stop with the insults. : : :
: : : Black (meaning darkness ie: the night)has always been associated
with evil. "Afraid of the dark...." But why? Many, many reasons.
You can't see very well or very far. Therefore, a fear of the unknown
or something lurking or hiding to hurt you, you hear noises but
can't see what it is. "Being left in the dark"...(to be unaware.)
There are less people out, alot of stores are closed. Nothing grows
much in the dark and most people are sleeping--the part of day when
you are probably the most vulnerable. Night has been associated
with crazy people. The word "Lunatic" derv. from the word lunar--Latin
for "the moon" which comes out at night....heard enough...are you
afraid yet. Amazing, but did I mention ANY ethnicity. The bible
said beware of the dark man
: : : (NOT COLOR OF SKIN) but ANYONE who is evil. Jesus said that
he is the "light and the way".
: : : The light, the color white (or yellow), the sun....all soothing
and warm. "I see the light...." People PLEASE stop thinking that
black used with an evil undertone means color of skin. Are you THAT
stupid! Maybe YOU are the "dark" one God warned us about. : : I fear you stand on a pillar of certainty so high that even
the rain which falls on our heads falls not on yours and that, as
you gaze down on the clouds which obscure your view of the rest
of humanity, you are confirmed in your opinion that either we all
are white or should aspire so to be. : If you understood what I wrote, then I know in your last sentence
you meant..." we all are "good"
: or should aspire so to be..(good).--vs. evil.
: Unless it was thought once again that it all meant color of skin
and you may be on your own pillar...so, look whose calling the kettle
black.
: Peace. It pains me to put it so bluntly but you display all the characteristics
of a bigoted, opinionated redneck whose attitude to life is propped
up with selected quotations from the good book. Have you no shame?
|