Black & white
Posted by ESC on January 08, 2000
In Reply to: Re: Morris explanation posted
by Amos on January 07, 2000
: : : : : : It's clear that "the pot calling the kettle black"
refers to criticism that could equally apply to the critic. But
why is "black" a criticism in this phrase? I am specifically wondering
if this is one of those nasty ethnic slurs that is left over from
a time when such things were more commonly spoken, or if some other
interpretation might apply. Any ideas or information? Please send
an e-mail. Thanks. : : : : : POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK - The "Morris Dictionary
of Word and Phrase Origins" by William and Mary Morris has more
detail about this phrase than other reference books. (Note: iron
pots and kettles are already black, even when new.) Judge for yourself
whether the phrase has racial connotations. I guess that issue hinges
on whether the color black being associated with "evil" has a connection
to racial prejudice towards dark-skinned people: : : : : : "There are two slightly varying interpretations of this
phrase, which is used figuratively to apply to persons. One theory
is that such action is ridiculous because they are both black, presumably
from standing for years on a wood-burning stove or in a fireplace.
So the pot as well as the kettle is black (evil) and neither one
is better than the other. This supports the explanation of the phrase
as given in 'Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable': 'Said of
one accusing another of faults similar to those committed by himself.' : : : : : The other theory is that the pot was black but the kettle
polished copper and the pot, seeing its own blackness reflected
in the shiny surface of the kettle, maintained that the kettle,
not it, was actually black. In any event, it seems that the best,
if slangy, retort by the kettle may have been: 'Look who's talking!' : : : : : Usually the source of the phrase is given as Cervantes'
'Don Quixote' and simply as 'The pot calls the kettle black,' but
another version of Don Quixote comes out as: 'Said the pot to the
kettle, get away black-face!' Henry Fielding, eighteenth century
writer, reverses the roles in 'Covent Garden Tragedy': 'Dares thus
the kettle to rebuke our sin!/Dares thus the kettle say the pot
is black!' Even Shakespeare used the idea in 'Troilus and Cressida':
'The raven chides blackness.'" : : : : To use a technical term, I fear you're guilty of 'Churning'.>>> : : : An elaboration of that term would be appreciated. : : : And another point, can you really be posting the transcript
of a conversation between a copper kettle and a pot and expecting
to be considered serious.>>> : : : Could Cervantes? : : : Methinks you're still influenced by overindulgence in the
the kind of festive cheer that comes from bottles marked "100% Proof"
- and that's the kindest explanation I've got.>>> : : : Verily, methinks the wench indeed hath quaffed of our finest
ale; how apple-cheeked and lusty she doth appear! : : I'm as black as you can get (even my brown African brothers
give me the cold shoulder) so before we dredge up the words of all
manner of dead white folk to justify everything please understand
that it hurts at times to be visible only as a stereotype. It also
doesn't help your self confidence to be the butt of any and all
words and expressions featuring the word black, e.g. black balled,
blackmail (male), blackguard, blackout, blackberry, blackbird (are
you married to.), blacksmith and even 'the pot calling the kettle
black' etc. : : I guess I probably over-reacted so have a great New Year and
all that stuff. : I should like to believe that the rustle I think I hear in the
echoing silence is the sound of dried leaves on the dead vine of
prejudice but I have fears that it's merely Winter waiting for a
Spring of luxuriant growth. Ms. Finley posted the original inquiry about whether the expression
"pot calling the kettle black" was a racist expression. I initially
gave my opinion that, no it isn't. Then I did some research, reconsidered
and posted information from a reference book for the purposes of
further discussion. I agree that most of the time the color "white"
represents good and "black" represents evil. But it seems to me
that the core of the discussion should be whether "black" being
equated with "evil" comes from negative feelings about dark-skinned
people or does it stem from "black" being associated with night,
for example. Some of these expressions are ancient and might predate
the black/white racial issue. This should be an interesting discussion.
But please contain your anger and stop with the insults.
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