In Reply to: Poor as a church mouse posted by ESC on April 10, 2009 at 20:48:
: : : : : : Poor as a church mouse - where did it originate and exactly why a church mouse is so poor? Is it because there is no food in the church, and what?
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: : : : : The Oxford English Dictionary has this:
: : : : : "A mouse which inhabits a church. The proverb 'as poor as a church-mouse' is found also in German, and other langs."
: : : : : The first citation they give of its use in English is from 1731.
: : : : : If a mouse tries to survive in a church, it will presumably find little food. Even in our time, when church suppers and socials and picnics are common, the food is not actually stored in the church, but in an annex of some kind--if it is stored on the premises at all, and not solely in the homes of the parishioners.
: : : : : Of course, there may not be such a thing as a church mouse. Even an animal as stupid as a mouse is not going to stay long where food is so scarce. However, I'm prepared to have someone more familiar with churches than I am say that they have personally seen mice scurrying about in some church.
: : : : I haven't seen mice. But I attended a church -- located near the Kentucky River -- that had river rats down in the basement. Or at least that's what the minister said and ministers don't lie.
: : : : The phrase "poor as a church mouse" dates back to the seventeenth century. "...James Howell's 1659 proverb collection states it as 'hungry' as a church mouse..." "Facts on File Dictionary of Cliches," second edition, edited by Christine Ammer, Checkmark Books, New York, 2006. Page 333. Ms. Ammer's theory is the same as stated above: there's no food storage at the church.
: : : : (I would like to deviate a little and address the part about animals not being stupid enough to stay around where there's no food. Online today I read a story about a dog who fell overboard, swam five miles to an island and survived by killing and eating feral baby goats. That was characterized as "amazing." Swimming five miles might be amazing. But a hungry dog killing and eating a goat isn't amazing. It's what dogs do.)
: : : I don't know if it is amazing or not. But an animal socialized only to the humans who feed it at a young age may not easily learn how to kill for food. If you watch "Growing Up ________" on Animal Planet (and you certainly should) you will see numerous cases of animals orphaned who have notlearned to hunt, and have to be taught, rarely by humans, but mostly by being inserted into a group of wild adults, or apprenticed to an adult. The story of Christian the Lion, if I remember correctly, shows him learning to hunt from an adult mentor. So it is not entirely implausible that a hungry dog, learning to attack and kill kids, could be considered amazing, even though dogs are predators by inheritance, and practice nunting skills in their play as pups.
: : : But hunger makes you desperate, so even humans, when sufficiently hungry, will attack and kill whatever they can, including other humans. Dogs, too, are known to become cannibals to survive. What's amzaing, perhaps, is that the author of the story didn't think things through. Still, what a dog!
: : : SS
: : As usual, I want to kick it around again. I think it should be emphasized that the dog who swam to the island and survived by eating baby goats found himself in a very exceptional situation. It is quite possible that had he not found himself on an island, at a time when baby goats were around, and still babies, he would have had a very difficult time feeding himself. Anyone can catch baby goats if the goats are on an island from which they can't escape. The reason that dodos are extinct is because they lived on an island, from which they could not escape when pursued by cats dumped by visiting ships. (The reason there were dodos in the first place is that the y lived on an island which contained no predators.)
: : The dogs that stayed alive be eating other dogs also were in a very exceptional situation. They and their prey were confined and left unfed, but had access to each other. They couldn't escape to forage (or scavenge) for food.
: : I feel obliged to say this because countless pets die or lead a miserable life because their owners drop them off in the country, thinking that there's plenty of food there, just waiting to be killed and eaten. Sure, this house-raised dog shoved out of the car in an unfamiliar landscape is going to know all about finding those little critters who have spent a lifetime avoiding being caught. I had an aunt who lived at the junction of two dirt roads out in the sticks. People often came out to dump some poor dog they didn't want to care for any longer. Amazing! The dogs knew how to seek food by looking for a house, where a generous human might live.
: : One incident has to be retold. Some cruel owner dumped a large dog somewhat resembling a German shepherd. It found its way to auntie's door, and she and he became fast friends. (Once you become friends with a dog, you can no longer say "it.") It was great for both of them until one of those city types actually stole her new dog.
: : Moral: watch out for city folk.
: : Moral: dogs and cats DO NOT do well when dumped in some outdoor Eden with no previous preparation. And it's especially true if you dump them in late summer, fall, or winter. Sheesh.
: All dogs go to heaven and people who mistreat animals go to hell. Can I get an amen.