Posted by Lewis on June 10, 2005
In Reply to: Cat out of the bag posted by Gary on June 06, 2005
: : : : : : : : : : : Cat out of the bag - I was told this has a nautical derivation, closely linked to 'no room to swing a cat'. Both terms referring to the cat of nine tails, rather than an actual moggy. Apparently the 'cat' in question was kept in a muslin bag and you were obviously in serious trouble if the cat came out of the bag.
: : : : : : : : : : : It all sounds very plausible, especially with other popular English sayings having a nautical derivation, such as square meal etc. - but is it fact?
: : : : : : : : : : Ah, plausibility. Where would we be without it?
: : : : : : : : : : For 'cat out of the bag', see https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/227250.html
: : : : : : : : : : Many phrases do have a nautical derivation. I wouldn't be so quick to include 'square meal' though. It's reported in some places to be from the Royal Navy, where it's claimed they served food on square wooden plates. I've not been able to substantiate the plate geometry with the Royal Navy museum, although they don't rule it out. The phrase itself is said by the OED to be of US origin and they have no citations earlier than 1868.
: : : : : : : : : :: You have been infected by agents of the dreaded CANOE (the Campaign to Attribute Naval Origins to Everything). Beware CANOE, their agents are everywhere!
: : : : : : : : : There isn't a shred of truth in the alleged nautical origin of "cat out of the bag". For one thing, no sailor convicted of an offence would have been unaware where the cat-o'-nine-tails was kept, or been surprised to see it being produced - so how could that have given rise to the meaning "that's given away the secret"? For another, none of the people making this claim has ever produced an example of it being used in a nautical context.
: : : : : : : : : The same is true of "no room to swing a cat'; this phase also refers to real live moggies, not flogging. It was a charming English custom back in the 16th-18th centuries to hang a live cat in a bottle and set it swinging as a target for marksmen. People who try to connect this phrase with flogging also fail to produce any examples of its being used in that context.
: : : : : : : : : (In which context, don't believe anyone who tries to tell you that "more than one way to skin a cat" is about catfish; this one too is about moggies. Cats were so regularly skinned for their fur in previous centuries that there was actually a proverb, "what can you have of a cat but her skin?" meaning "you can't get more value out of a thing than it intrinsically has")
: : : : : : : : : "Square meal" is also not nautical, whatever the guides on HMS Victory may tell you. Yes, the Royal Navy did continue using square wooden "trenchers" into the early 18th century, rather later than they were in general use on land. But the phrase, as Gary correctly says, arose in mid-19th century America, at which time Americans also spoke of a "square drink". Try deriving that from 18th-century British naval customs! "Square" here simply means "fair, honest", just as in "square deal" or "fair and square".
: : : : : : : : : (The guides on HMS Victory also like to say that "on the fiddle" derives from naval messing practices as well. That's bunk, too.)
: : : : : : : : I haven't a clue as to the origin of " Cat out of the bag"...but...have you ever had a cat IN a bag and let it get OUT? Irrespective of origin it is surely obvious how the phrase has persisted.
: : : : : : :
: : : : : : : I have always believed that the phrase 'let the cat out of the bag' refers to an old trick by which someone purporting to be selling pigs would instead put a (worthless) cat in a bag and pass it off as a piglet. If a suspicious (or wise) buyer didn't trust the salesman and opened the bag to look at his would-be purchase, the cat would be let out of the bag.
: : : : : : : DFG
: : : : : : I agree abou t the pig story. Cheating salemen at mediaeval fairs would put animals other than pigs in their sacks for sale. Cats could get out - hence the saying. Other animals were less able to. So, when you got home you may have found that you had 'been sold a pup'. Warning - always check your goods before you take them away!!
: : : : : I'm going to agree also. What everyone is talking about (a dishonest vendor putting a cat in a bag and selling it off as a piglet), gave rise to the reference to a "pig in a poke", i.e., buying sight-unseen. The buyer was warned not to peek into the bag for fear of losing the pig. If he did, however, and the product escaped, he would have let the "cat out of the bag".
: : : : :: The same scam was practised by French peasants, and they have an equivalent proverb: "acheter chat en poche" (="buy a cat in a bag").
: : : Could I suggest that you don't add colons at the front of postings? It makes it difficult to tell who posted what.
: : I never add colons - they just appear. It is in an attempt to simplify matters that I initial my stuff (for my benefit more than anyone else's: I am easily confused.)
: : DFG
: Yes, colons are meant to appear before each post. The request was meant for the people that do add extra colons rather than the ones that don't.
I think letting the cat out of the bag may refer to the unpleasant tradition of drowning animals - cats and dogs that had too many puppies/kittens had them put in a sack and thrown in the river/canal. cats are not obedient animals and are quick movers - if you have a cat get out of a bag it will prove very difficult to get back in - thus a secret let out will be difficult to get back under control. it is possible that along with being 'sold a pup' the expression is from fairground cheats, but I favour the difficulty of control line.
speaking of the contrary nature of cats - "managing lawyers is like herding cats" - is another expression I have heard and used myself yesterday.