OOH!

Posted by Lewis on July 19, 2004

In Reply to: Only the good die young posted by dhm on July 19, 2004

: : : : : : "Straight as a Dime"

: : : : : "Straight as a die" means honest or loyal. My dictionary, the Concise Oxford Dictionary, says that die is the singular of dice. A die should be fair and not subject to other influences. It also occurs in the phrase "the die is cast".

: : : : : For earlier discussions of the phrase, look in the archives. Go back a page and use the Search box at the top.

: : : : I've never heard "straight as a dime."

: : : : AS STRAIGHT AS A DIE - "Entirely honest; morally upright. The reference is to the engineer's die used to cut the thread down the outside of a metal rod. The die must be straight-running and true if the thread is to engage properly with the groove cut into the female receive." From Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable revised by Adrian Room (HarperCollinsPublishers, New York, 1999, Sixteenth Edition).

: : : : From Merriam-Webster online. See 2b.
: : : : Die -- 3 plural dies : any of various tools or devices for imparting a desired shape, form, or finish to a material or for impressing an object or material: as a : the larger of a pair of cutting or shaping tools that when moved toward each other produce a desired form in or impress a desired device on an object by pressure or by a blow : a device composed of a pair of such tools b : a hollow internally threaded screw-cutting tool used for forming screw threads c : a mold into which molten metal or other material is forced d : a perforated block through which metal or plastic is drawn or extruded for shaping

: : : There seem to be two schools of thought about what the "die" was. I must say I don't find one any more persuasive than the other.

: : anybody with any knowledge of engineering knows that a 'die' is an engineering tool to shape something. "die-maker" is one of the traditional engineering jobs. most people have heard of 'die-cast' metal even if they do not know the meaning. 'the die is cast' is to say that the shape is set.

: : I think it is incidental that the expression would also be the proper usage for a single dice (die) being thrown (cast). most people do not use the correct singular word and say 'a dice' even when they mean one die.

: : the danger of being academic rather than empirical is that a number of possible meanings and usages can appear of equal standing, yet in use one may be much more likely than another. the well-known and used engineering metaphor may not be given greater emphasis in MW, but for an expression that something is settled it is much the better choice - a die having been thrown has not landed and so nothing is settled by that 'die' being 'cast' whereas cast metal is set.
: : Furthermore, in gambling, using more than one die is the norm - 2 dice or more are usually used, which is why the word 'dice' is more familiar than 'die'.
: : The indicators are that for 'the die is cast' an engineering/metalworking origin is more likely.

: I agree with everything you say, except your interpretation of "the die is cast". "Straight as a die" almost certainly comes from the meaning of die corrsponding to the tool and die makers trade. Dies had to be made with extraordinary precision, since they were used to make interchangable machine parts and, in some cases, other tools. Hence, straight dies had to be staighter than the ordinary tool. Before we went all white-collar, most people worked with tools everyday and would be familiar with such a term.

: However, "the die is cast" is a literal translation of the Latin "alea jacta est", which is what J. Caesar said on crossing the Rubicon. "Alea" translates as a gaming piece, but not as a tool.

I did not know that it was a translation from the forbidden tongue - so in that sense 'the die is cast' is not an expression of certainty, but that a risk has been committed to. "crossing the Rubicon" is to declare rebellion because for many years no army way allowed in Rome and the Rubicon (a river) was the boundary of where approaching military forces must halt. at least that is what I recall.
so 'the die is cast' is counter-inuitively that a gamble has been made but the outcome unknown.
drat!