Posted by Smokey Stover on July 17, 2006
In Reply to: Re: Beware the Man of One Book posted by Lewis on July 13, 2006
: : : : : : : : : : what does the proverbial saying spare the rod and spare the child really mean . Does this anything to do with spanking or does it have another meaning from a biblical stand point. what does the rod represents really . Does it mean beating children with rods ,belts ,sticks .What about its histrical content as it relates to slavery . Please give me some backgroung
: : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : 'the rod' has long been used as a symbol of authority - ancient Egypt being one place. it also represents a stick for administering corporal punishment - and there was a rule that a stick up to the diameter of a thumb could be used to beat.
: : : : : : : : : the saying means that failing to exert authority over a child is bad for the child's development. some people take it literally, that parents must use physical chastisement, whereas others take it more figuratively.
: : : : : : : : : L
: : : : : : : : SPARE THE ROD AND SPOIL THE CHILD -- ".'Piers Plowman' by William Langland warned, 'Who-so spareth the sprynge (switch), spilleth his children.' The exact wording of the modern version was quoted two centuries later in John Clarke's 'Paroemiologia Anglo-Latina' ." From "Wise Words and Wives' Tales: The Origins, Meanings and Time-Honored Wisdom of Proverbs and Folk Sayings Olde and New" by Stuart Flexner and Doris Flexner (Avon Books, New York, 1993).
: : : : : : : : The biblical book of Proverbs, in its original Hebrew, contains five passages which refer to disciplining children with a "shebet." The word is usually translated in English as "rod." At first glance, these passages seem to instruct parents to discipline their children using violent means -- by physically hitting them with a rod, paddle, belt, or other implement.
: : : : : : : : Some feel that the real meaning of these passages in Proverbs is the opposite to their apparent literal interpretation. The verses actually call on parents to abandon methods of child discipline which involve the inflicting of pain.
: : : : : : : : Others feel that the author(s) of Proverbs did recommend that parents beat their children into submission with a rod. They argue that these passages are merely a reflection of a very violent society which practiced human slavery, stoned non-virgin brides to death, tortured prisoners, committed genocide, and acted in other ways which are considered profoundly immoral by today's religious and secular standards. All of the latter practices have long since been abandoned. Thus we should reject the infliction of pain as a child-rearing tool as well.
: : : : : : : : http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin13.htm
: : : : : : : Slavery is clearly biblical, and despite the soft-headed abolitionists who have temporarily disrupted God's plan .... oops. Sorry. It's very hard to keep track of which parts to ignore of The Only Book You Need, like those uncomfortable parts of Leviticus where we are obliged to stone people for eating owls, or whatever. I'm not just picking on fundamentalists like Dr. Dobson: Two Somali boys were murdered the other day for watching the World Cup. Apparently the Koran says something very negative about television.
: : : : : : Here are the passages from Proverbs, in the King James and the New English Bible translations. I don't see how anybody could possibly argue honestly that they are anything other than an endorsement of severe corporal punishment.
: : : : : : Proverbs 13:24
: : : : : : (KJV) He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
: : : : : : (NEB) A father who spares the rod hates his son, but one who loves him keeps him in order.
: : : : : : Proverbs 19:18
: : : : : : (KJV) Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.
: : : : : : (NEB) Chastise your son while there is hope for him, but be careful not to flog him to death.
: : : : : : Proverbs 22:15
: : : : : : ( KJV) Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
: : : : : : (NEB) Folly is deep-rooted in the heart of a boy; a good beating will drive it right out of him.
: : : : : : Proverbs 23:13-14
: : : : : : (KJV) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
: : : : : : (NEB) Do not withhold discipline from a boy; take the stick to him, and save him from death. If you take the stick to him yourself, you will preserve him from the jaws of death.
: : : : : : Proverbs 29:15
: : : : : : (KJV) The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
: : : : : : (NEB) Rod and reprimand impart wisdom, but a boy who runs wild brings shame on his mother.
: : : : : And? Well, thank you, Victoria, for revealing the dark side of "proverbial". No, really, I'm glad you assembled in one place what the "Good" Book says on the subject. Part of the on-going horror story.
: : : : : SS
: : : : The Bible must be read with some intelligence. As Billy Graham has pointed out, it contains the words of God, the words of the devil and the words of man. It is a mistake to just "Bible dip" and read isolated passages. Context, context, context. Who is speaking and who is he/she speaking to.
: : : Smokey says: I think ESC has just taken me to task for my comment about "the on-going horror story." Actually what I had in mind was the unsparing rod that many people inflict on their children and sometimes wish to see inflicted on other children as well. The behavior, the on-going horror story that produces so many warped angry sociopaths, never seems to go away.
: : : The self-righteous defense of it by referring to the Bible never seems to go away, either, although that's an after-thought in this instance. However, I agree with Bob (and I hope with ESC) that those who think they are living by the Bible when they desire to beat their children or stone homosexuals should read Leviticus more closely. If the Bible tells you the right thing to do, then you must stop eating pork and a host of other things (owls among them). You must also avoid the sin of Onan, whom the Bible condemns for casting his seed upon the ground. Does anyone really think that nice Christian young men are always able to avoid casting their seed on the ground? (Some can, no doubt, and instead cast it in their bed during sleep time.)
: : : My beef, and I hope ESC's as well, is with people who use the Bible to justify hateful behavior.
: : : SS
: : The Bible, yes, but also the Koran, Mao's Little Red Book, Das Kapital, and on and on. When you run across a person who says all the answers are in One Book, the opportunites multiply for kill-the-unbelievers hatred.
: glad we've found a bit of balance in here. I'd hate to have to beat you all with a stick for your heresy (or worse).
: the essence of the saying is that love involves being tough and that although it is uncomfortable to punish your children and give them distress, there is greater harm in neglecting to give them boundaries.
: as for Onan - it wasn't that God punished him for strengthening his right hand or for pulling out of the deal - it was that he was doing so because he wanted to avoid a particular conception for a particular reason, despite being aware that a particular plan of God involved that conception.
: I don't recall the New Testament condemning all self-pleasurers to a pit of eternally hot jism. If in the Beatitudes Jesus said "Blessed are those that abstain from masturbation, for they shall see the Kingdom of Heaven. The rest of you tossers will go blind" then I think we'd be in clearer theological waters: as it is, it is not always easy to know the relevence of old prohibitions.
: I never eat owls though.
The best place in the B
ible to find prohibitions that your neighbor might be ignoring is the first five books, the Pentateuch, especially Leviticus. It happens that Onan's story is in Genesis. My thanks to those of you who have pointed out that Onan wasn't just sitting around looking at porno magazines, but was making a statement by his coitus interruptus. At least, that's the story. But saints both numerous and holy have roundly condemned both masturbation and coitus interruptus. I would hate anyone to think there was anything facetious or tongue-in-cheek in my remarks concerning Onan.