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Posted by Bob on June 17, 2005

In Reply to: Willy nilly posted by Victoria S Dennis on June 17, 2005

: : : : : Just to start things off, I wonder if anyone has come across this derivation. In Neal Stephenson's Baroque Trilogy (which is a very good read by the way, despite needing a handcart to lift) he writes willy nilly as 'will he, nill he'. I can't find any reference to that anywhere and it's quite possible Stephenson made it up. Having got most of the way through these books it's clear that he isn't short on imagination.

: : : : : I've not seen that before - anyone else?

: : : : I have seen that, a long time ago and I can't remember where. It strikes me as being a bit unlikely.

: : : : DFG

: : :
: : : Although today many of us use "willy-nilly" to mean "haphazardly" (as in "She scattered wine bottles willy-nilly in her wake"), the original meaning was "willingly or unwillingly".

: : : When "willy-nilly" first appeared in English around 1600, it was as a contraction of the phrase "will ye, nill ye," meaning "whether you (ye) are willing or not willing." And the archaic word "nill" found in "willy-nilly," which meant "to be unwilling," comes from the Latin word "nil," meaning "none" or "not," which arose as a contraction of the Latin "nihil," meaning "nothing."

: : : For most of its history, "willy-nilly" has had this "whether you want to or not" meaning -- our "sloppily" or "haphazard" meaning is a fairly recent development.

: : : From the Word Detective.

: : I've always assumed that willy-nilly was just a slurred from of "will he nill he." The idea that "will ye" is what is represented is new to me. So naturally I looked it up in the OED, which diplomatically (?) declines to choose between "will I" and "will he." There probably is no way to tell. One is immediately put in mind of the L@tin equivalent, nolens volens, which is used with the same meaning. In fact, it was used (in English) at least a half-century earlier than willy-nilly. The form volens nolens also appears, but less often than nolens volens. SS

: "Nill" is not actually from Latin "nil" but is an archaic English verb, a contraction of "ne will", meaning "not to wish, to be unwilling"; so willy-nilly is an exact equivalent of volens nolens. In The Taming of the Shrew Shakespeare makes Petruchio say to Kate "Will you, nill you, I will marry you".

Great string of answers. Love it.