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Re: East is East and West is West

Posted by Henry on March 25, 2005

In Reply to: Re: East is East and West is West posted by SR on March 24, 2005

: : : : A few days back I asked "Question for students of literature: when Kipling used the word 'nigger' referencing a dark person in India was he using a derogatory term? I mean was it derogatory then and there?"

: : : : This was followed by a referral to the archives. When I search for +Kipling +nigger I get my question and a link that gives an error message. May I ask my question again?

: : : : Question for students of literature: when Kipling used the word 'nigger' referencing a dark person in India was he using a derogatory term? I mean was it derogatory then and there?

: : : You can probably find the page that's giving you the erroe message by clicking on "cached" at the end of the Google result.

: : : But in general it would have been derogatory because Kipling was a racist. The thing was, most people in Kipling's era were. Racism was the way that members of the upper class understood the world and to be a racist was not, at the time, considered unusual or particularly bad. Many "respectable" people were. In America, Teddy Roosevelt springs to mind. It really took the experience of Nazi Germany to finally discredit racial thinking beyond any doubt.

: : ...and never the twain shall meet.

: : there are different shades of thought that are today lumped in to 'racism' - now, even positive stereotypes are considered racist (which they are by the usual definition). there is a natural 'racism' with people which is very different from 'discrimination' or 'victimisation' - I have met lots of people who would generalise about races, yet would not treat any individual in a less favourable way than somebody of their own ethnic or cultural group - or for that matter think any worse of them either. it is unfortunate that the social wrong of the behaviour of victimisation against people is lumped together with cultural/national issues.

: : pretending that there are no differences due to cultural background is harmful to eliminating victimisation or worse treatment on grounds of race.

: : 'discrimination' is a word for 'taste' or 'refinement of judgment' - is it a good word to use for mistreatment based on race?

: : just a thought...

: : Kipling may have been a 'racist', but that doesn't say whether that made him think better or worse of people. his famous saying or "East is East" is more about culture than the worth of people, IMO.

: : L
: I particularly like the admission in the end.
: "By the livin' Gawd that made you,
: You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!" SR

Kipling wasn't setting out his own views in the Barrack Room Ballads. He was reflecting the attitudes of the soldier at the bottom of the pecking order, and in the words that they used. Nigger and Fuzzy-Wuzzy are clearly pejorative terms for Africans.

Kipling described the troops' lives in both Africa and India. You should read the whole of The Ballad of East and West before you jump to conclusions. The first and last stanza in fact reads;

Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgement Seat:
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

Like the finishing lines of Gunga Din, these are hardly the views of a racist, or of someone who believes that your position in life should be dictated by the position of your parents. Even today, it seems a very modern and enlightened view. Kipling gave his support to the under privileged classes.