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Straightforward

Posted by Henry on July 19, 2004

In Reply to: Straight talking posted by Bob on July 19, 2004

: : : : : : : "Straight as a Dime"

: : : : : : "Straight as a die" means honest or loyal. My dictionary, the Concise Oxford Dictionary, says that die is the singular of dice. A die should be fair and not subject to other influences. It also occurs in the phrase "the die is cast".

: : : : : : For earlier discussions of the phrase, look in the archives. Go back a page and use the Search box at the top.

: : : : : I've never heard "straight as a dime."

: : : : : AS STRAIGHT AS A DIE - "Entirely honest; morally upright. The reference is to the engineer's die used to cut the thread down the outside of a metal rod. The die must be straight-running and true if the thread is to engage properly with the groove cut into the female receive." From Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable revised by Adrian Room (HarperCollinsPublishers, New York, 1999, Sixteenth Edition).

: : : : : From Merriam-Webster online. See 2b.
: : : : : Die -- 3 plural dies : any of various tools or devices for imparting a desired shape, form, or finish to a material or for impressing an object or material: as a : the larger of a pair of cutting or shaping tools that when moved toward each other produce a desired form in or impress a desired device on an object by pressure or by a blow : a device composed of a pair of such tools b : a hollow internally threaded screw-cutting tool used for forming screw threads c : a mold into which molten metal or other material is forced d : a perforated block through which metal or plastic is drawn or extruded for shaping

: : : : There seem to be two schools of thought about what the "die" was. I must say I don't find one any more persuasive than the other.

: : : when talking about dies in engineering terms, I forgot the 'straight as' expression that started this thread - dice are often not 'straight' whereas an engineering die would be almost inevitably regular.

: : Dice may not be straight but neither should they be crooked! How many people know how to cut a thread on a bolt? Exactly what part of the die is straight? Using a die is still a specialised trade today and it is hardly likely that it was any better known in the past. I know that technical terms are adopted in popular speech, and often with a change of meaning. Look at quantum jump! However, thread cutting does seem an obscure origin for such a well-known phrase.

: Thread-cutting is only one example of a die. All machine tools involve dies, perfect models from which parts are manufactured. The concept of a die is (and has been) quite well-known. Its metaphorical use as an exemplar of straightness is well-documented, as in the references above. I realize you want your guess (about the singular of dice) to be considered, but the evidence does not support it.

I understand the connection between dies and accuracy. The connection between dies and straightness is much less clear. Similarly, the singular form of dice is not persuasive. Dictionaries express differing opinions on the origin too. I don't support any particular origin, and I'm aware that different authorities have considered the phrase before and reached different conclusions. It's an interesting question and I doubt that we shall reach a conclusion which has unanimous support. I'm not even clear about the orignal meaning of "straight" in the phrase. If it means straightforward in character, is it more likely to derive from gaming or engineering? It would also be curious if "straight as a die" and "the die is cast" came from different origins.

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