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Re: En-and em-spaces or dashes.

Posted by Smokey Stover on November 18, 2003

In Reply to: Re: Happen or happening? posted by GPP on November 18, 2003

: : : : : : : : : : : : : When you write cost-benefit analysis, do you use a hyphen or an n-dash (aka n-rule)? Admittedly, this is a question only for the madly pedantic, but hey, I fit that category, so please - knock yourselves out! I got the Oxford Style Manual for my birthday (as an addition to my Chicago Manual of Style), and in the OSM they render cost-benefit analysis with an n-dash. As I don't have the book with me here (sorry!), I cannot give you the reason for it, but whatever the reason given, it did not, while I was reading it, become clear to me why they prefer the n-dash. They have some other good examples, though, with dire semantic implications: The Arab-American [hyphen] community refers to people originating from the Middle East now living in the States, cf. Afro-American, etc. The Arab-American [n-dash] community, on the other hand, is people from the Arabic countries PLUS Americans considered as one group. This is the OSM's own very up-the-minute example. Based on this, I suppose one would talk about the Soviet-American [n-dash] cold war. On the other hand - and on a lighter note - we may say that Anna Kournikova is a Soviet-American [hyphen] babe. If there is a case to be made in favour of writing cost-benefit analysis with a hyphen, it would be that it's a (compound) word in it's own right. That is, it's very often used. It's not like you alter between it and, say, cost-profit analysis, and even if you did, I still don't see the reason for using the n-dash. I look forward to hearing your comments on this.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : Best
: : : : : : : : : : : : : Anders

: : : : : : : : : : : : You've lost me. What is an "n-dash"?

: : : : : : : : : : : Sorry 'bout that, ESC! Well, it all concerns the length of you dashes. Perhaps you've noticed, when writing in MS Word, or some such program, that a single hyphen, surrounded by space, and being between two words, may automatically become longer as you keep writing - strictly speaking, when pressing space or return. In this manner, a hyphen may turn into an n-dash (or so it does on my computer). The m-dash is twice as long as the n-dash. How you employ them depends on the style sheet you use. The HTML codes for n- and m-dash are: - and - respectively (the codes may be rendered as dashes when I post this, which will only make it clearer, so let's hope it happens).
: : : : : : : : : : : Cheers
: : : : : : : : : : : Anders

: : : : : : : : : : Yeah, we're in luck! Only the hyphen cannot be distinguished from the n-dash. Anyway, let's post them again:
: : : : : : : : : : hyphen: -
: : : : : : : : : : n-dash: -
: : : : : : : : : : m-dash: -
: : : : : : : : : : Anders

: : : : : : : : : Correction, it really does work!
: : : : : : : : : Anders

: : : : : : : : So m-dash and n-dash are mere artifacts of Microsoft Word and are therefore simply toys for geeks. I understand the artifact was to create a non-breaking space in a machine readable document and has therefore no standing whatever on the printed page.

: : : : : : : Em dashes and en dashes preceded MS Word by a long, long time. They go back to hot-lead typesetting.

: : : : : : : I'd use a hyphen in "cost-benefit analysis."

: : : : : : I'd use my accountant!

: : : : : This little note (cf. link) gives a brief explanation of the different dashes. However, it says the em rule is now less common than it used to be. I wonder if that's generally true? I really like it!
: : : : : Anders

: : : : :: Why talk about hyphens and dashes in the same sentence? If one has both, one never uses dashes in place of hyphens, and vice versa. Typists, because of technical limits, have to improvise, but dashes have been available almost as long as there has been cold type. The em-dash is by far the most common. I don't know if I have ever actually seen an n-dash. A quick survey of what I can readily find does not reveal the proportion lengthwise of an n-dash to an m-dash, but I rather doubt that an em-dash is twice as long. But I think that's probably an academic question. En-spaces, on the other hand, are very commonly used. On a different note, if you wish to say "Yay" as a sort of "Hurrah" you spell it Yay. This spelling is also used for positive votes. "Yea" in the BIble is pronounce as Yay, but Yeah is always slang for Yes, and has its own pronunciation. My favorite phrase using "Yeah" is "Yeah, right!", which means totally wrong.

: : : Hiya Smokey
: : : I was not expecting a comment on that! My "yeah" above was an affirmation that what I had predicted could happen, really did happen. I was glad to see it happen, but not surprised enough to yell "yea!" let alone "yay!"
: : : Anders

: : One grammar question please. Which is correct, "happen" or "happening" in my own sentence above: "I was glad to see it happen . . ."?
: : Thank you
: : Anders

: "Happening" would not be wrong, but would be a little strange. "Happen" would be more colloquial in this sentence (which is not always the same as being grammatically preferable), but also fits better with what you meant: you wanted to see if something DID happen, not whether it would 'be happening', or continue to happen.

:: Anders has reminded me, indirectly and very politely, that only he can be sure of what he meant to say. It remains true that a written 'Yeah' by itself does not convey much about the intended tone. It could be a positive-sounding "Yeah, man!" or a substitute for "Yes!" Or it could be a sort of dismissive comment. I regret that I didn't point out the positive Yes votes are usually rendered "Yeas," as opposed to "Nays." A worse omission was probably my failure to point out that en-spaces, like en-dashes, are so-called because they occupy the width of the lower-case n in that font (or fount, as the British have been known to say). The em-space is of course the width of a lower-case m. I have never seen the locution n-dash or n-space in print. En and em are the official spellings. N-dash is confusing. Another error on my part was to suggest that before hot type there was cold type. Nobody ever spoke of cold type before hot type was invented in the 20th century. The Linotype hot-type machine was so-named because each column-width "slug" of type that it produced contained a line of type.