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Re: Toeing The Line? - other explanations

Posted by Lewis the Disagreeable on July 11, 2003

In Reply to: Re: Toeing The Line? - other explanations posted by James Briggs on July 08, 2003

: : :
: : : anyone know the definition of "toeing the line"? (alt:"towing the line"?)

: : : I have never heard this phrase before but from the context it was used I think I know the meaning but would like to make sure.

: : : thanks.

: : TOE THE LINE ? ?Meet a standard; be up to snuff. The ?line? is the mark that appears in the incantation, ?On your mark, get set, go!? It is the starting point for a foot race. In the broader sense the term appeared in ?Westminister Gazette? in 1895: ?The phrase ?toeing the line? is very much in favour with some Liberals.?? From "The Dictionary of Cliches" by James Rogers (Ballantine Books, New York, 1985).

: If you are asked toe the line the you are expected to conform to the rules of the situation. In one suggested origin the Line actually exists and is found in the House of Commons. It was put there to mark the sword distance between Government and Opposition front benches. Members were told to toe the line if, in the eyes of the Speaker, they became too excited.
: A less romantic possible basis is found in athletics where the runners in a race line up with their toes on the line.
: The US navy has a completely different origin. From their web site comes:
: The space between each pair of deck planks in a wooden ship was filled with a packing material called "oakum" and then sealed with a mixture of pitch and tar. The result, from afar, was a series of parallel lines a half-foot or so apart, running the length of the deck.
: Once a week, as a rule, usually on Sunday, a warship's crew was ordered to fall in at quarters -- that is, each group of men into which the crew was divided would line up in formation in a given area of the deck. To insure a neat alignment of each row, the Sailors were directed to stand with their toes just touching a particular seam.
: Another use for these seams was punitive. The youngsters in a ship, be they ship's boys or student officers, might be required to stand with their toes just touching a designated seam for a length of time as punishment for some minor infraction of discipline, such as talking or fidgeting at the wrong time. A tough captain might require the miscreant to stand there, not talking to anyone, in fair weather or foul, for hours at a time. Hopefully, he would learn it was easier and more pleasant to conduct himself in the required manner rather than suffer the punishment.
: From these two uses of deck seams comes our cautionary word to obstreperous youngsters to "toe the line."

So no mention of boxing then?
I can't recall the period - but pre 20th century and before Queensbury Rules, I assume - boxers had to fight with their front foot on the same line drawn on the ground, so that they were in brutally close range. Each had to "toe the line" before being allowed to compete.

The story of wooden decks on ships sounds plausible too, but pre-supposes that the navy was hung-up on neatness. Until the modern navies, most water-borne fleets were rather ramhsackle affairs and sailors a rather free-spirited and undisciplined lot. I reckon that pre QR boxing pre-dates neat naval tradition.
There is no reason why such a phrase could not have two common usages.
At least it's not the brass monkey puzzle again...