Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The pot...
Posted by Amos on January 23, 2000
In Reply to: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The pot...
posted by ESC on January 23, 2000
: : : : : : That "Black and White" thread got so curved that it
hurt my neck to read it. So I am taking the liberty of starting
another one. I, too, have felt the wrath of Amos. He accused me
of being a drinker I believe. But you have to admit the man does
turn a nice phrase. "I should like to believe that the rustle I
think I hear in the echoing silence is the sound of dried leaves
on the dead vine of prejudice but I have fears that it's merely
Winter waiting for a Spring of luxuriant growth."Is that original? : : : : : : But any how I agree with Bob that we are getting way
off the point of discussion. Is the phrase "pot calling the kettle
black" a racist phrase? When the question was first posted, I said,
"No. It's not a racist phrase. Then I did some research that lead
me to believe that, well, maybe it is. I will repeat, in part, what
I posted: ".Usually the source of the phrase is given as Cervantes'
'Don Quixote' and simply as 'The pot calls the kettle black,' but
another version of Don Quixote comes out as: 'Said the pot to the
kettle, get away black-face!'." : : : : : : I think an important question is, when did the black/white
animosity begin? I know we all started in the Garden of Eden, but
for a while thereafter we were on separate continents. When did
we get together again and start hurling insults? Does this old saying
pre-date racial slurs against blacks? : : : : : : As an aside, I want to note that many times people
unknowingly use old phrases that are slurs. (See the entry about
Dutch. Those guys have it rough.) For example, a few weeks ago I
overheard one person thanking a second for a favor. She said, "That
was mighty white of you." Now that's a phrase that should be purged. : : : : : : And another thing. Amos Jackson. Jim Brown. Richard
Roundtree. ?? : : : : : A few points: : : : : : 1. The phrase is original : : : : : 2. With all due respect to your religious beliefs I doubt
many share your certainty that the creation story in the Bible accurately
reflects the origins of the human species. : : : : : 3. Perhaps those who are curious, as to the origins of
black-white animosity, might consider, as one contributory cause,
the fact that thousands of black African people were carried to
these shores in chains, bred like cattle and treated worse that
dogs for several generations and only in recent times have their
descendants been reluctantly accepted as members of the human race
- probably. : : : : : 4. I trust you're not implying that I contribute under
the names of Roundtree or Jim Brown. : : : : :
: : : : : Amos : : : : Forget what I said about the Garden of Eden. I do believe
we are all children of Father Adam and Mother Eve. But putting that
aside, we humans started out in the same tribe. Then people spread
out over the world and the different races developed. Can we agree
on that? That's what I meant. : : : : If there is a professional linguist onboard, please jump
in anytime. What seems obvious to me is, animosity between two groups
of people (and the accompanying racist phrases and slurs) can't
begin until a) they have regular contact and b) there is some sort
of conflict. Again, look at the example of the Dutch and English.
And another example, Texans and Mexicans. These conflicts don't
date back to the beginning of time. They started at some point in
history. : : : : When did "black" come to mean a dark-skinned person and
when did being "black" become an insult? If we could get a fix on
that (1400s, 1500s, 1600s, just when?) and a fix on when "pot called
the kettle black" was originated, we would get an idea about whether
the saying is racists? : : : : Did racial slurs about black people start with the beginning
of the slave trade? Did it start earlier? African-Americans were
relatively powerless while slavery was in effect. Did the racial
slurs/phrases become in vogue after the Civil War and whites began
to resent the blacks new-found freedom? : : : : I am trying to get the subject back to the history of language. : : : : No Amos, I don't think you're posing as Richard or Jim.
I was just suspicious of the African-American sounding names that
popped up all of a sudden. : : : PS. Here's what I'm talking about. Miguel de Cervantes, the
author of Don Quixote, the source of the phrase according to one
reference, lived from 1547-1616. ".Usually the source of the phrase
is given as Cervantes' 'Don Quixote' and simply as 'The pot calls
the kettle black,' but another version of Don Quixote comes out
as: 'Said the pot to the kettle, get away black-face!'." According
to "I Hear America Talking" by Stuart Berg Flexner, "black face"
meaning a dark-skinned person didn't come into usage until 1704. : :
: : You mind is a garden of pretty flowers, trimmed lawns, rose
covered trellises and busy, useful, non biting insects, all fanned
by a gentle breeze which wafts the heady scent of evening flowers
to every favorite seat in every corner of a well fenced paradise. : : For excitement and education why not find the key that opens
that rusty lock in the door, venture out, and explore the real world
at close quarters. : : A model, constructed of comforting passages from the Good Book
and leavened with regular ingestion of inspirational Readers Digest
articles and half heard conversations blown over the garden wall,
may not do justice to the reality that is out there. : : Notwithstanding all of the above, and having reread the original
thread, I find myself in agreement with 'Teach': let's leave this
matter of colour, race and ethnicity to another forum better able
to deal with it and here let's enjoy the pursuit of '.exploring
the glorious eccentricities of the English language.' : I give up. Since you continue to be so insulting, I'm going to
tell you what I really think. I think you are white. Regarding why
you would pose as a black person, I have no earthly idea. The end.
Good bye. Signed, Sojourner Truth. It's amazing what the presence of a well turned phrase has on the
perceptions of the reader. Perhaps you require a picture of my old
black face and a sworn affidavit that it is indeed my own. But then,
perhaps you'll only be satisfied when you've scrubbed it to make
sure I'm not just a blacked up, erudite white fellow complete with
false nose, lips and curly wig.
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