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Re: 6s and 7s

Posted by James Briggs on February 11, 2002

In Reply to: Re: 6s and 7s posted by Bruce Kahl on February 10, 2002

: : : Does anyone know the origin of the phrase, to be at sixes and (or) at sevens?

: : From the archives:

: : Source: "Hog on Ice" by Charles Earle Funk: (paraphrased). The expression is believed to be 150 years old at least (this written in 1948). An older form, "on six and seven," was known in Chaucer's day and he used it in 1375 in "Troylus and Cryseyde." But he didn't explain it. Mr. Funk thinks Chaucer's use referred to an old dicing game. From Chaucer and other sources, we know there was a game where to try a throw of six and seven was a very risky gamble. One who staked his win on such a throw was reckless in the extreme.

: It's one of the more ancient expressions in the language, being recorded in the fourteenth century. There are various theories about its origin, but the most probable is that it arose out of an old game of dice called hazard, one in which one's chances of winning were complicated by a set of rather arbitrary rules.

: It is thought that the expression was originally to set on cinque and sice (from the French numerals, "five" and "six"). These were apparently the most risky numbers to shoot for ("to set on") and anyone who tried for them was considered careless or confused. Later, the number words shifted to their modern values, perhaps because the link with the game (and the original French words) had by then been severed, or perhaps it was a joke, as seven is an impossible number to throw with one die. The change may also be linked to the sum of the new numbers being thirteen, always considered unlucky. Its modern sense is simply "to be confused".

: Incidentally, our word hazard came into the language first to refer to the dice game (via the Old French hasard and the Spanish azar from the Arabic az-zahr "luck, chance"), and only later took on the meaning of a danger or risk, or as a verb, to venture something.

Here's what some/many people in the UK regard as the origin. It fits with the earliest date from Chaucer

If someone is at sixes and sevens then they are in a quandary; they don't quite know what to do next. The saying originates from a situation in 1327 and relates to the Guilds of Tradesmen in the City of London. The Merchant Taylors and the Skinners were founded within a few days of each other, five other Guilds having already received their charters. The age of each Guild dictated its position in the Lord Mayor's procession. The Merchant Taylors and the Skinners argued for fifty years as to which should go sixth in the procession. In the end, in 1494, Sir Robert Billesden, the current Lord Mayor, decreed that they should take it in turns to go sixth and seventh.
An alternative explanation that the saying has something to do with throwing dice is much less likely, and far less romantic.